Welcome to Faith Sign in | Help
CS Search | Live Search Search
logo

My turn to ask you

Last post 04-14-2007, 6:34 AM by BaronJuJu. 15 replies.
Page 1 of 2 (16 items)   1 2 Next >
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  •  09-14-2006, 10:31 AM 3409

    My turn to ask you

    As stated, in Faith you will have a maximum of two characters.

    One will be Faithful and thus s/he will respawn on death in a safe location.

    But the other is Faithless, and that means permadeath.  You don't have to play your Faithless slot at all, or if you choose to do so, it's not required that you ever leave a safe area.

    But we all need to address the indisputable fact that when the Faithless die, they're dead forever.

    So, what happens to their stuff?

    Everything they're carrying will of course be lootable.  But what about stuff in their bank of choice or their house or any other posessions?

    Should you be able to make a Will?

    Should your estate be taxable?

    What if you could "nominate" a name for your next character?  Or leave all your worldly goods to another character completely?

    What if you owe money to anyone when you die?

    What if you needed to lodge official documents to detail your bequests or have them ignored?

    I think it's time you told us what you want.  But please remember, your suggestions, while they may or may not be acted upon, will need to balanced for fairness and longevity against all the other systems of Faith.  So saying "I want no penalties and all my stuff oh, and a nice cake too" really won't cut it.

    Thanks,

    Cael


    I have plundered the fen,
    Through all secrets i spy
    Old Madd ap Maddonwy
    knew no more than I



    In der Beschränkung zeigt sich erst der Meister - Goethe
  •  09-15-2006, 10:29 AM 3417 in reply to 3409

    Re: My turn to ask you

    Cael:
    As stated, in Faith you will have a maximum of two characters.

    One will be Faithful and thus s/he will respawn on death in a safe location.

    But the other is Faithless, and that means permadeath.  You don't have to play your Faithless slot at all, or if you choose to do so, it's not required that you ever leave a safe area.

    But we all need to address the indisputable fact that when the Faithless die, they're dead forever.

    So, what happens to their stuff?

    Everything they're carrying will of course be lootable.  But what about stuff in their bank of choice or their house or any other posessions?

    Should you be able to make a Will?


    That would be interesting, but could be ripe for abuse.  It depends on what players have to start with.  I recall a much earlier discussion that said players would start with nothing but would be eligable for a loan.  I assume that any debts would be applied to the estate before any payouts would be made. 
    Cael:
    Should your estate be taxable?

    Oh, yes.  definitely.

    Cael:
    What if you could "nominate" a name for your next character?  Or leave all your worldly goods to another character completely?

    I think leaving to one's next character destroys the who purpose of perma-death.  Would I mind my fully-equiped, rich character dying if I knew that I'd get all (or most) of that back?  Not as much as if it was really gone.
    Here's the abuse part.  Kohs and I make a deal where we name the other person in our wills.  I die and all my stuff goes to Kohs.  I create a new character and he gives all my stuff back to me.  Same thing happens if he dies. 
    Again, I've lost my character, but I just have to come up with a new name and start working my skills back.  I still am fully equiped and that recovery is much easier.

    Cael:
    What if you owe money to anyone when you die?

    Is this something in the system, or did Kohs just spot me 10k with the understanding I'd pay it back?  In that case, I don't see a practical way to do this.  If there was a Prosper.com system to loan money, then it should come from the estate.

    Cael:
    What if you needed to lodge official documents to detail your bequests or have them ignored?

    I think it would have to be a system process in order to do any of this.

    To conclude, it would make the game realistic to have this capability, but I worry about minimizing the consequences of the faithless dying. 

    One way to deal with this would be to put a temporary lock on the faithless slot (a month?) to limit the die-reroll-reload possibilities I stated above.  Of course, this only prolongs the issue rather than resolving it.

    Another way would be for all the possessions to be confiscated and auctioned off with the proceeds going to the estate after being taxed.  Even if people were teaming up to protect their possessions, the amount that would be recovered would be greatly decreased and the chances if losing valuable equipment would be increased.

    Hopefully that will get the ball rolling on the discussion.  These ideas are just a first-pass response.


    Strangers always have the best candy
  •  09-15-2006, 12:25 PM 3418 in reply to 3417

    Re: My turn to ask you

    dlc3007:
    Here's the abuse part.  Kohs and I make a deal where we name the other person in our wills.  I die and all my stuff goes to Kohs.  I create a new character and he gives all my stuff back to me.  Same thing happens if he dies. 

    Again, I've lost my character, but I just have to come up with a new name and start working my skills back.  I still am fully equiped and that recovery is much easier.

    *record scratch*

    since there are no "skills" in Faith, you won't really have to start working them back.

    and this abuse of Wills concerns me a good deal.
    in my opinion, one of the tenets of playing your Faithless character is that you are playing in "hardcore" mode.
    if he dies, he dies.

    i wouldn't want to see players bypassing that.
    it would lessen the meaningfulness of death for the Faithless character.

    i don't think i'd like to see any sort of temporary lock on creating a new Faithless character either.
    when someone's Faithless character dies, they shouldn't have to wait to play again.
    they should be able to create a new character and jump right back into the Faith universe.
    of course this new character shouldn't have any of the social advancements or rankings achieved by the old one.
    it's a completely new character and should be viewed as such.

    if my first Faithless character, Kohs, becomes the senior adviser to the Capo of the Rutinelli crime family, and he dies.
    then my new Faithless character, Carlo, would not automatically become the new senior adviser.
    so why then should any of Kohs' stuff go to Carlo?

    if Kohs had an expensive Giovanelli sharpshooter rifle, he likely earned that item.
    Carlo is new to the Faith universe, he hasn't earned anything yet.
    if Carlo is given that Giovanelli rifle, he will have gained a distinct advantage over all other newly created Faithless characters (especially those created by new players).

    if we allow players to pass along their stuff from one Faithless character to their next, the more established players will always have that advantage over new players.
    this is something which has always bothered me in MMOs, and i feel we should try to avoid it as best as we can.


    on the other hand, would that be too harsh a penalty? would it drive estabished players away?
    perhaps.

    there are other factors to consider though.
    not every character is going to have a place of residency where they would be storing their stuff.
    i would imagine by the very nature of the Faith universe, that many Faithless characters who get themselves into lethal situations would not possess very much. most would travel with what they own.
    not every character is going to have a bank account either.

    also, if there is a lawful "last will and testament" system implemented, a player should, as Cael said, "lodge official documents to detail your bequests or have them ignored".

    this would mean that lodging official documents would cost the character money.
    it would also mean taking an inventory of what would be left.
    if you left all your belongings to me, i would have to consent to taking all of your stuff. this would mean i would need a place to store them.
    if you owned your house, then that would go to me as well, and i could keep it all there. but if you didn't the bank would likely take the house back and force me to store my newly aquired stuff elsewhere.

    also to consider, where your Faithless character died, and where your new Faithless character enters the Faith universe.
    the universe is large, and it might take some time for the news of your death to arrive to the proper authorities.
    it also might take some time for your new Faithless character to arrive to where i am, or where your former character's stuff is.

    and once you arrived, would i simply be able to hand your house and stuff over to you?
    legally, it would be mine still. at least the house and property. i would be paying taxes on the house and property.
    if i were to transfer ownership back to you, that would cost money for lodging more official documents, as well as take time for those documents to be registered.


    hmm...
    i'm thinking that maybe, just maybe, if we allow that sort of thing, a "last will and testament" type of system. and we make it the right amount of complicated, that we might prevent players from gaming the system and bypassing our intents.

    it shouldn't be overly complicated.
    but there should be costs, time, and legal issues to consider. generally, it should require some sort of effort.
    it shouldn't be a monumental effort, but it shouldn't be too easy either.

    lodging official documents with a cost attached. having those documents take a certain amount of time to be processed. having to take an inventory of all items which will be passed on. having factors like taxation on property, as well as the great distances to travel.
    all of that should add up to a decent level of complication.

    i'll continue to think on this issue.
  •  09-15-2006, 1:12 PM 3421 in reply to 3418

    Re: My turn to ask you

    s/skills/reputation

    or whatever.  :)


    Strangers always have the best candy
  •  09-18-2006, 9:23 AM 3432 in reply to 3421

    Re: My turn to ask you

    I have some conflicting thoughts on the matter, but I will give them anyway in freeform.

    Having your Hardcore Mode means exactly what it is called. Any of your status, contacts, etc shouldn't be passed onto a new character. There are things that should though. Property and belongings shouldn't just be seleted from the databases when someone dies. There should be a system that allows thigns to stay.

    It is a delicate walk to make, and we will have to be very careful while doing it, but I think the realism involved will benefit the game enough to make it worthwhile.

    A Will system is good, but I think it should be something that is heavily taxed or managed such that it isn't simply a matter of transferring a fortune to a new character. I think it should cost money to even have the Will officially drawn up and recognized to begin with and make it such that most average players would only be able to bequeeth a couple or few items and a small chunk of change. The fatcats could do more, but the percentages scale up.

    On a more open level though, I think it perfectly reasonable that if Kohs got knocked off and he entrusted me to a key to his home that I should be able to go in and loot it for what I want. The items are still there, they shouldn't just dissappear. What if I have stuff in his house that I want back? I wouldn't want them to just wink out of existence.

    What about a time limit? With a bit of randomness, based upon the social structure and the law enforcement structure of the planet? A time limit that would be adequete for local authorities to notify family and arrange funeral services? or maybe an investigation? or some specific code enforcement to determine the rightful heir of the estate? If no one steps in to claim the item legitimately, they go poof as property of the state. Perhaps ny heir as stated in a Will still must go through a waiting period to receive the stuff as the officials process the claim of rightful propriety?

    There are options to be had. Some hardline limitations that can be enforced with reasonable explanation. I don't know exactly where I sit yet, but if we can make it realistic and immersive without blowing our brains out about it, I think we should.

  •  09-18-2006, 9:33 AM 3434 in reply to 3432

    Re: My turn to ask you

    Further reading....

    I have plundered the fen,
    Through all secrets i spy
    Old Madd ap Maddonwy
    knew no more than I



    In der Beschränkung zeigt sich erst der Meister - Goethe
  •  09-18-2006, 12:24 PM 3438 in reply to 3434

    Re: My turn to ask you

    What y'all aren't taking into account is the space of time between a person dies and when his possesions are transfered to his heir.  Also all the good weapons, armor and such will most likely be carried on someones person.  Lets say Faithless dies.  His body lays there until someone finds it.  Does that person report the body to the authorities?  Does that person ignore it an move on?  Does that person loot the body and burn the corpse?

    When you die, the legal system does not automatically know you're dead.  It needs proof.  So if a Faithless dies, maybe no one will know.  Then the player is SOL. Because if they're character isn't officially dead, just missing, no assests can be transfered unless they get the character named legally deciesed.  Which I'm sure is not an easy prospect.  So if a player has the idea that he can die and just pass all his stuff on to a new toon or to a friend who will give the stuff to a new toon, maybe we can make it a very risky measure.  And an expensive one.  Scavengers who will take the body and leave it a John Doe, or destroy it altogether.  Banks that will not simply take someones word, that will need legal documents saying that the person is dead, they wanted you to have their stuff, and you are who you say you are.

    My train of thought just derailed, but basically I say let them leave wills, but don't make it automatic that everything with the will goes smoothly.


    It's my goddamn job to make sure you do your goddamn job.
  •  09-18-2006, 12:42 PM 3440 in reply to 3438

    Re: My turn to ask you

    good thinkin' 'Sani.
    i like that.
  •  09-18-2006, 1:38 PM 3441 in reply to 3440

    Re: My turn to ask you

    And just imagine of the new toon of the dead faithless tries to go report his own death.

    "So you mean this man is dead?"

    "Yes officer, his body is at these precise coordinates"

    "How do you know where the body is?"

    "Um, I found it."

    "Uh-huh, and you say that you are entitled to all the worldly possesions of this man whose body you just happened to 'find.' What were you doing when you found the body?"

    "Um...taking a walk?"

    "You were taking a walk and just happened to stumble upon the recently violently killed corpse in the middle of nowhere."

    "Yes."

    "Of a man from whose death you stand to gain a great deal."

    "Uh..."

    "Son, I think you're gonna need a lawyer."


    It's my goddamn job to make sure you do your goddamn job.
  •  09-18-2006, 2:23 PM 3442 in reply to 3440

    • Ben is not online. Last active: 03-14-2008, 4:10 PM Ben
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-21-2006
    • Minneapolis
    • Posts 314
    • Points 3,855

    Re: My turn to ask you

    I don't have a lot of time to read or write at the moment, but my 2 cents on the matter is to look at the Diablo hardcore system.  It's clearly an 'accepted' model... in general... at least in my perspective.  So... in that respect, when the Faithless dies, all stuff goes 'away' and by 'away', I mean away from the player.  If you're going to war and you worry about your precious, precious heirlooms or money... send them to someone before you go.  <shrug> 

    That said, I like the idea of time delays of the personal effects and estate of the Faithless being distributed to the beneficiaries... after a time delay... a delay contingent on the amount of stuff to be distributed, the kinds of equipment and the circumstances of the death.  Wills... we could have templates and discrete options for wills, we can't have free-form Solo-esque flexibility in writing clauses, etc. 

    Also... in Kohs' example, why would the new guy get a bunch of sweet stuff from the dead capo?  Because the new guy was the protege, maybe?  I kind of like the idea of that.  Gear doesn't necessarily buy you directly into an organization.  Although a nice bankroll... that speeds things up, I suppose.  <shrug> 

    It could be unbalancing... we could always disable wills later if it unbalances things.  OR extend the 'adminstrative period' for the processing. 

  •  09-19-2006, 2:12 AM 3445 in reply to 3442

    Re: My turn to ask you

    Another aspect.

    I had built a Bank system for the demo where players had account numbers, using a Password (rather than a PIN for atmosphere) to access the cash.

    That way players could open accounts, for an ongoing maintenance fee, with a banking house for whatever purpose they wanted be it guild, trading or joint accounts with a spouse.

    Numbered accounts. Password access. Hacking. Bearer access.

    Do you still want this or a less realistic player locked model?


    Chris E-A. It's in the name.
  •  09-19-2006, 2:27 AM 3446 in reply to 3445

    Re: My turn to ask you

    I still want this.


    I have plundered the fen,
    Through all secrets i spy
    Old Madd ap Maddonwy
    knew no more than I



    In der Beschränkung zeigt sich erst der Meister - Goethe
  •  09-19-2006, 7:00 AM 3449 in reply to 3446

    Re: My turn to ask you

    Cool.

    In which case there's a factor there to meta-ownership. The player knows the account password, not the character.

    Maybe we shouldn't worry about wills or such.

    Loot whatever is on the player body and the players will learn to keep their cash password protected across a few accounts.


    Chris E-A. It's in the name.
  •  09-19-2006, 8:56 AM 3451 in reply to 3449

    Re: My turn to ask you

    Hey, we also have bank account numbers with passwords but you don't get to withdraw my cash over the counter without committing a crime.

    In our universe, there are many types of accounts.  You've just described the classic "Swiss Bank" style, which is great but rarely of use (and offers zero interest plus a holding charge).

    I'd like to see players get options, y'know?


    I have plundered the fen,
    Through all secrets i spy
    Old Madd ap Maddonwy
    knew no more than I



    In der Beschränkung zeigt sich erst der Meister - Goethe
  •  09-20-2006, 11:28 AM 3456 in reply to 3451

    • Ben is not online. Last active: 03-14-2008, 4:10 PM Ben
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-21-2006
    • Minneapolis
    • Posts 314
    • Points 3,855

    Re: My turn to ask you

    I'll add that to my crime list, Cael.  Smile [:)]
Page 1 of 2 (16 items)   1 2 Next >
View as RSS news feed in XML
CS Build: 2.1.61025.2
Edgecase Studio